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The Fall play ...

Thurs., Nov. 21 Electric Ballroom, Camden
tickets £12 advance; doors 7 p.m. Supported by Nought and Dr. Freak's Padded Cell (who include Steve Evets, sometime Fall collaborator)
April 4-6, 2003 All Tomorrow's Parties, Camber Sands


The Fall vs. 2003 single has been pushed back a week to December 2.

7" blue vinyl (ltd. ed.)
1. Susan vs. Youthclub (Smith / Milner)
2. Janet vs. Johnny (Smith / Pritchard)

CD single
1. Susan vs. Youthclub
2. Janet vs. Johnny
3. Susan vs. Youthclub - remix


Heard the single on Peel last night - On first listening sounds like its about some woman called Susan who has a bit of an accident and goes back to being 16 again - Wasn't this a storyline in "Neighbours" recently, where the teacher, Susan lost her memory, and wandered into the School disco, confused by everyones reaction cos she thought she was the same age as them? Not that I watch such daytime piffle..........


Haven't seen Neighbours in years, but that exact same plot was used in Twin Peaks.


With thanks to Paul Lewis, here are 16 photos of the Oxford Zodiac gig (Sept. 27, 2002), including a great shot of the new keyboard player, who I assume is Elena?


Dustoff2002 (from the pop-up-plagued message board):

Too much free time, so I'll copy the three Fall refs in the liner notes of the new "Luxe and Reduxe" re-issue of Pavement's "Slanted and Enchanted":

1. Stephen Malkmus: "Sprilal has good ears. I was ready to drop 'Summer Babe'. It seemed a little thin to me. Scott was like 'that song is great, we can't lose that one.' Were it not for him, there would have been one more 'Hex Induction Hour' rip-off to pad side 2..."

2. Gerard Cosley (of Matador recs): "The Fall ripoff tag has always struck me as grossly unfair, even if I said it out loud about a hundred times. Being blatantly Fall-esque in a band's infancy is certainly no worse than an obvious love of the Beatles."

3. There's a part where Dan Kortetzgy of Drag City is saying the Pavement 10" 'Perfect Sound Forever' was a tribute to the Fall's 'Slates' "in format alone."

Also there are a couple Fall mentions in the Pavement DVD, in the commentary tracks etc. As you can tell yeah I like Pavement, even thought their 'Classical' cover was lacking as recorded. And yeah OK they stole 'New Face In Hell' outright. But why not. The love is real.


From Manchester Online:

"Fall out for Manchester punk icons"

FAMED Manchester punk icons The Fall have split from their manager, in what is being described as a "John and Yoko-style rift" with flamboyant frontman Mark E Smith.

Ed Blaney, who has handled the band for the past two years, told The Diary that he has quit and that Smith's wife Elena has taken over the reins.

The revelation came just hours after the group announced they had axed their forthcoming US tour - for the second time in less than six months - because of problems with visa applications.

A leaked letter from Elena to a Los Angeles booker, posted on the band's official website, blames Blaney for failing to follow the "correct procedure" and adds: "Ed just booked the tour without making sure we would have a visa". The Fall had been due to open in San Francisco on October 9, followed by 14 dates across the States.

However, following the familiar refrain of rock 'n' roll bust-ups, Blaney insists the fiasco was not his fault and that his long-term friendship with Mark E Smith is now over.

"It's a John and Yoko scenario," he says. "I've resigned because I can't run something that's unmanageable. There are too many outside influences. I'm not pleased with the way it's turned - Mark and I were good friends and I'm very disappointed.

"This latest tour was nearly sold out and I don't know why they didn't go," he adds. "The visa applications were taken out of my hands about three months ago, but even so there's no reason why they couldn't just get on a plane and fly out. The US venues said it would be OK, which it was the last time they toured the States in November last year."

But Blaney, who now manages newcomers Hanky Park, insists he bears no grudge. "I've had a good time but I'm moving on and I feel I've left with my reputation as a manager in tact [sic]."

A rebuttal, also from Manchester Online:

"Falling in again"

MANCHESTER punk icons The Fall have dismissed rumours the band is in disarray after their split with manager Ed Blaney. Following my revelation that a John and Yoko-style rift with eccentric front man Mark E. Smith caused Blaney to quit, The Fall guitarist Ben Pritchard says the band is planning a "blistering" 25th anniversary year with a new single, album and rescheduled US tour.

"Ed was a good manager but he could only do so much," he says. "It got to the point where it was a complete clash of personalities between Ed and some members of the band so, rather than take it to the point where everybody was going to be at everyone else's necks, we decided to move on from there. It's been done amicably."

The priority now, he says, is getting the new single - an EP called The Fall versus 2003 - out on November 25 and reorganising the cancelled Stateside tour next spring.

"Axeing the gigs was unavoidable because of visa problems but we want to make amends with our friends in the US," adds Pritchard.

While London fans will get an exclusive preview of the new single, at an Electric Ballroom gig on November 28 [sic - actually Nov. 21], he also promises loyal Manchester crowds a live city centre session soon.

"With our 25th anniversary next year [actually their 26th anniversary - ed] there's a lot of ideas floating about. The vibe is The Fall is back on top again and we won't be forgetting our support up here."

One more from MO:

MANAGER of The Fall, Ed Blaney, has actually just taken over the reins of fellow Manchester band Hanky Park.

The man charged with the unenviable task of keeping Mark E. Smith and Co in line tells me handling the Hanky lads is a breeze by comparison.

"I just took over managing them three weeks ago and they're totally fantastic, a brilliant band," he said.

"Not only that but they own their own gear and they've all got cars. What an amazing world away from The Fall."

Also at Manchester Online, your chance to vote for Mark E. Smith as the Greatest Mancunian (after Morrissey anyway, who won the previous poll by a landslide).


I'm very sad to report that Dave Harrop, a longtime Fall fan and frequent contributor to this site, died on October 14. He had collapsed at the Blackburn gig last month and thought it had been due to heat and exhaustion, but it turns out there was an unknown underlying problem. He was cremated on Oct. 22 in his Fall T-shirt, and carried in to "Birthday Song."


In case you hadn't noticed, Conway's done a fantastic job revamping the discography pages. He's also added details about all the Fall radio sessions. Yay Conway!


Reviewer extraordinaire Mark Prindle recently interviewed Paul Hanley via email and also reviewed the Ark cd "Brainsold." The transcript and review (in the last update section) are on his website http://www.markprindle.com.



There's another live Fall show on the Dream Ticket tonight (Oct. 16) - the website doesn't say what it is, but it should be available from the archive from tomorrow



Stephen Bending's replaced the out-of-synch video clip of the Snub TV Dead Beat Descendant with (most of) the Inspiral Carpets (with MES) performing I Want You on Top of the Pops (from March 1994). It's on his site at: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/s.bending/ (9.14 mb).


latest releases (see the Sept 20 Fall news for details about scads of upcoming re-releases and compilations)

Pander, Panda, Panzer:

pander panda panzer

Mount Street Sermon; PPP/The End; Enigrammatic Dream; Life Just Bounces; Copenhagen "Set-Up"; Dissolute Singer; Lucifer Over Lancashire; Lakeland Opus 1; Sport Duet; Idiot Joy Showland; "Plus 5 Previously Unreleased Sentences"

Recorded: Salford/L.A./NYC/Cambs.

Matt Bryden's review from the Tangents website:

Mark E. Smith of The Fall has been leaning towards solo performances for a while. Besides regularly sacking his band, 1999's The Marshall Suite contained the brilliant 'Birthday Song' a monologue against a Van Gellis-like keyscape by Julia Nagle. 2000's The Unutterable contained 'Kettamine Suns', a song preceded by a poem about 'the lesser qualities of family life'. Smith, it seems, has always been writing plays, ballet librettos and attending songwriting conferences with Michael Bracewell.

His first spoken-word album, 1998's prosy The Post Nearly Man, was extraordinarily inaccessible and unrealised, containing an apparent sci-fi script and one excellent H. P. Lovecraft adaptation in 'The Horror in Clay'. As literature, only 'Dissolute Singer' which detailed an American tour really stood up. Enlivened by musical samples from The Fall's back catalogue a solo career did not beckon.

Pander! Panda! Panzer! may not be particularly popular either (It is one radio-friendly 42 minute track), yet on the new material he escapes the shackles of his band and strikes out on his own. He seems to have learnt the lessons of Post Nearly Man, which he describes as 'semi-rubbish, semi-ok with 15% on top brilliant', and the mood is more varied. Smith the hectorer is interspersed with Smith the affable. Several pieces here were recorded in front of an American audience (where he's happy, away from the beady eye of the English press) whom he treats like an old hand:

It's Saturday. Let's go out and float our money around in front of low-paid student bar-staff.

There's also a foot and mouth joke.

The album begins with Smith and a European-sounding woman reading a history book, occasionally in synch. In this it resembles The Unutterable's Grant Showbiz-produced 'Devolute' whose authority and vocal quality this recording shares. Smith's voice is stronger and projects more than on the largely dictaphone-recorded Post Nearly Man. While that listening experience was paced with whistling and a minute's worth of silence, each monologue on Pander! Panda! Panzer! is surrounded by music that sounds like something out of Baraka. The alternately portentous and pathetic result is similar to word-terrorist Chris Morris' radio show 'Jam', which itself featured The Fall. For example, there is nothing in the following lyrics to signify that when delivered you would feel like you had witnessed someone giving up for good:

What does it all mean in the end, it is …
What does it matter? Dr Book's letter.

Smith is interested in words - he even gets a kick out of his name (which appears twice here) - and 'Pan' appears in each of the three words of the title. He describes their different sounds as 'the outside flavourness of it'. Pan has long been a Smith referent.

Sadly, he also reads lyrics from Fall songs and pieces from The Post Nearly Man. With the plethora of live albums and alternate versions doing the rounds, you may wonder whether we need a spoken word version of 'Idiot Joy Showland'. To an American audience the lyric may be unfamiliar, yet in the context of an album it's bathetic. The genius of Smith's lyrics are as lyrics. There are too many rhymes for many of them to work as spoken verse and without the striking and offhand marriage of lyric and music the context of a lyric book would be more fitting. And it is sad to see such throwaway brilliant lines as 'You cannot legislate against wrongful encouragement' (from the introduction to 1988's 'Legends of Xanadu') placed in a prominent position for all to see as if Smith were saying 'I don't think I've got enough attention for this nugget'. 'Lucifer over Lancashire', as spoken, works because the lyrics are so spiky they repay repeated listening. And 'Dissolute Singer' sounds brilliant. Yet why are they included here? They weigh down the album and root it in the past.

The other half is stunning. Here, the new material flies: 'Please give me American money' reads a learn-English tape narrator. A piece which appears to be titled '5 Previously Unreleased Sentences' reads,

I was 10 years old when I was born
I was 20 when I died
At 30 I was resurrected
At 40 I had a recollection
At 50 I thought about life

Simple, but aurally effective. Smith mixes languages, stresses the distinctions between words, flicks through radio stations and mentions German tanks, Mauser guns and Churchillian campaigns. As a device another filmscript is read (or at least begun), and there are numerous illogical lists. Surveillance - Smith's pet hate - gets another airing as he condemns 'insecurity camera(s)' and 'a wholesale license for nosey-parkering'.

The reason to listen is for when he hits his stride as in this passage, loaded with specifics:

Digging deep in the ashtrays I discovered a coat. It was warm and filled with the finest feathers. Autumn said 'Hello'. 'Welcome!' said I, 'I must check the oil for paraffin'.

As in the mastery of yore he pre-empts your reaction;

Follow the route as it was planned. The topic had no meaning like the menu on the hard shoulder. Rewind, rewind, this is good.

Smith is not as consistent as he used to be, and the band isn't there to back him up. Yet he has mastered solo recording. Still making unique sounds with that unique voice, following his own agenda, this is his best release since The Unutterable, whose confident production it shares. He shakes off The Fall on the tracks which don't lean on them and has found his stride.

Matt's also tackled a PPP transcription:

Pander! Panda! Panzer!

To pander. Pander. Pander. Pander as to pander to. Panda animal. Panzer. Pander Panda Panzer. The outside flavourness of it.

(Woman begins speaking, falling in and out of synch with Mark): The besuited euro bear stalks not knowing….
The besuited euro bear stalks not knowing.
crumbs. Everybody knows this.
19. Let’s get all this rigmarole in the camp because there are so many things thought about at night that can only be done in the day.  
There are so many things at night that can only be done during the day.
The man who was biscuit paper thin
Of Dutch origin
phoned in the night.
In beauty and awe. Broken.
Useless and incomprehense.

You cannot legislate against wrongful encouragement.
And so it was plain and the threat of European intervention was real and immediate.

Outright war with England nearly took place in 1861 when hot-headed US naval officer Captain Charles Wilkes
took the twist, the lion’s tail and got more from the action than anyone was prepared for. … the civil war of 1960

Film script, synopsis.
Title: Das Nacht…
Director: ME Smith

A man called Crag moves from little village but soon finds himself spending most of his time in the launderette.
Or alternatively in the bier … AKA …
There his circumstances are not helped by the constant presence and visits by his cousin Simon Pieman.

Producer: Al Johnson.
Photography: …
Technique: … 

A. The Cheetham Hill crowd veterinary clinic.
The Cheetham Hill crowd veterinary clinic.

A Mauser erupts in the village. Broomhandles, things turn, when I try to round you look a nation of debt collectors. They can always pull a security excuse. Reply to. Pander.

I was ten years old when I was born.
I was twenty when I died
At thirty I was resurrected
No 7. I didn’t need to be told
At forty I had a recollection
At fifty I thought about

Good evening. I’m Mark Smith. The first one is Enigrammatic Dream
(See The Post Nearly Man).

Late Lakeland availability offer becomes the late law ability. This is how my mind is seeing things presently. In fact, looking now, it’s late late availability for a hotel called ‘Lakeside’.

I wrote this before the foot and mouth thing.

My mind has now five rooms. Educated voices wind me up. Ignorant voices wind me up. Middle-range Camden / Islington voices wind me up. Her pullover crackles like a sweetie wrapper in a silent cinema. What’s that about then Mark? More more more more.

So there’s two cows in a field and one says to the other ‘What do you think about that mad cow disease and foot and mouth?’ and the other one says ‘It doesn’t affect me I’m a fucking duck.’

The interim between lowdown and logistics Churchillian, campaign. Lake District tale. She hit him twice on Ambleside road. He deserved it and didn’t need to be told. He was strong like you. You must go back. But why? They’ll put you in a cage of watersteel bars. Water’s screaming from my tree. Water’s coming through the door. Cannot concentrate. You two up. Take a leaf out of it. I take it. Stop taking leaves off of it.

(Non-english language)
(Woman’s voice:) Please give me American money.
(Non-english language)

I live, live in a dance
Dr Book’s letter
I travel I stumbled I fell

This next one’s about my hometown. It’s called Idiot Joy Showland (See Shift-work)

Appraisal skills. This is about a friend of mine. Appraisal skills, this is when teachers have to take on roles. It’s a brief for Charlie, a mate, and he’s the most miserable bastard you ever met in your life. He teaches Shakespeare.

Brief for Charles Ritchie

You are 23 years old and known to your colleagues as Cheerful Charlie. You find most things in life one big laugh including your job. Although you’ve worked in the same team since leaving college, you have not progressed very far. This is not a problem. You get on well with your colleagues, they seem to like your never-ending share of jokes although sometimes they tell you to cool it when they’re trying to work. It’s not a bad place to work, no one seems to mind when you stroll in late for work. In fact they seem to admire you for your cheek. You put in a good day’s work when you’re down to it. Your attitude of live for today, tomorrow’ll take care of itself.  Cheerio Charley seems to work for you and you see this coming appraisal as a chance to sit down, have a laugh and a joke with the boss. 

Lucifer over Lancashire (see The B Sides album)

(Skips through radio stations)

….And I’ve never actually applied to a box number, but I have made many of my best friends …

The CD in your Hand (See The Post Nearly Man)

(Skips through radio stations)

No one seems to mind.

Devolute (See The Unutterable)

Life Just Bounces (See Cerebral Caustic)

This is not progress it is a wholesale license for nosey parkering.

Pander. To pander. Pander. Pander as to pander to. Panda animal. Pander panda panzer. The outside flavourness of it.

You cannot legislate against wrongful encouragement.


I was ten years old when I was born
I was twenty when I died
At thirty I was resurrected
At forty I had a recollection
At fifty I thought about life

To pander. Pander. Pander. Pander as to pander to. Panda animal. Panzer. Pander. Panda. Panzer.

The road was warm and the tent was full. The memories eluded my concentration. I arrived several hours ahead of the sunset. ‘Wake up!’, dawn said, you must travel. An amat. mag awaits you. Digging deep in the ashtrays I discovered a coat. It was warm and filled with the finest feathers. Autumn said ‘Hello’. ‘Welcome!’, said I, ‘I must check the oil for paraffin’. The path was clear apart from the bath-salts that aroused my suspicion. Follow the route as it was planned. The topic had no meaning like the menu on the hard shoulder. 

Rewind rewind this is good. Not all saints are with us. We are clone. Take care my friend. The tempestuous paddy, the tempestuous laddie decided to remeet along with all the bleak. The cats obeyed their shadow. They did not rewire room service.

When does this Frankenstein who moved up the road from me cough up the dough?

6. 6. Rest we I can only wait and know like all at the Bee Gees C2 aggregorate … they move slowly … They have to rush off early to their grim demise. Retching, refusing in their old imitation clothes of our new breadwinners. Our new breadwinners. Robot strands of … and sits in in their red tie conference. Who are we how did we get there? Who are we and how did we get there? This is the language course in Great Britain under your president. How hot are we going to be tomorrow? Insecurity camera in a cinema.

It’s Saturday. Let’s go out and float our money around in front of low-paid student bar-staff.

Many become a rabbit in the headlights. Involving the bracing chill of the market. A night of transformations.

Dissolute Singer (See The Post Nearly Man)

Ed lead iron bath swept pain on lead water tanks.

There is no death, pay or room. Selective memory in the Minister of Bank Holidays. Too much chin wagging not enough frightening.

4. When does this Frankenstein who moved up the road from me cough up the dough?

6. Rest. We I can only wait and know.

They have to rush off early to their grim demise. It is the outside flavourness of it. The cook book. The weird beard of the Birmingham halfwits continually feasting on my dough.

10. What mediocre perimeter of 11 will reject fake irony and embrace illegality?

12. Reject people of the first water.

13. Still thinking this makes no sense whatsoever.

14. Folded type Bissinger video as crisp as thin tissue on your typewriter. Later. Estate riots in perspex. Beer-driven author as quick door slamming uppity jerk in control. Disgusted by the heathen, pontificates on vermin all the time. He is a white-shirted pain in the arse. Nope. Dear princess. Nobody’s bringing prote dros… Incomprehensible. The anti-hostess and ready for a brand new start. Love is here. Test all your balls and set you free. Open up your heart. The Lake District tale. She hit him twice on Ambleside road. The leaves fell above her. He knew she deserved it. He knew he deserved it and didn’t need to be told.

Budget of a madman. Take a leaf out of it!


Meandering through the trash pedal white bar white in vest goes solo on polo. Romp. A 2g+2ing land. Oh sports fans where train crash is more sport. Gladiatorial shares for lives. Life. Live. The former education secretary is blind and the former former education secretary uses the phrase ‘more better’. Perverse Ps Pander! Panda! Panzer! mirror psychosis mirror psychosis of the gross incapacity. A masterpiece of shoddy British workmanship, chipped and digital to the grossest incapacity. The ongoing outward mirror psychosis. His England. Plantation of the sly dig and keep your voice down for you are Lot. I built myself up like Sting and don’t carry any money around. From shopkeeper I look and made you UM class and got 100 grand per year. Do not contradict. My spouse solicitor: do more tunes. You are soccer ruffian keep your voice down to see Paris of Mickey Mouse, and lo and behold, that’s what the business does to you. Nick in madness. Play festivals. Don’t get publicity. I love bald men.

Pan in my name.
Pan is my name.
Artificially audible through a Tandy loudhailer. I don’t know who shoot the horse despite the speculation.
Of Dr Books’ letter.
I bribed cameramen because I defaulted on my equity payment.

As a thespian I am so glad to visit the countryside to specialise in retrospective. It does one’s heart in, especially as I just rushed here from Wrexham. It’s hard to be the pilot of the ratpack. What does it all mean in the end it is … What does it matter? Dr Book’s letter.

Every room at 6 stop house was of a different temperature.  Being psychic has never done me any good whatsoever, as I always knew it would not.

Harry Hill encapsulates everything wrong with British society. What signals is he sending out to his big white shirt and large NHS spectacles? Fooling about, a qualified doctor needed by everybody.

‘I’m no football snob, never have been’, they say, ‘never will be’. Groan down the long days of misery. 

Sodomised and subsidised non-comedians in our wretched environment.
Go ahead, get down grad.

Vactyminal is the new drug flying around. Doc, what’s it about? I’ll come back after you stop the useless jokes.

(Non English language)


I was ten years old when I was born.
I was twenty when I died
At thirty I was resurrected
At forty I had a recollection
At fifty I thought about


Tom Hingley (ex-Inspiral Carpet) and the Lovers (including Steve and Paul Hanley) tour dates:

Oct. 19    Fibbers, York
Oct. 24    Barfly, Glasgow
Oct. 25    Club 204, Greenock
Oct. 26
   Drummonds, Aberdeen
Nov. 01    Leopard Club, Doncaster
Nov. 02    Barfly, Cardiff 
Nov. 16    Theatre Royal, Workington
Nov. 22    Dancehouse Theatre, Manchester
Nov. 30    Black Swan, Spalding
Dec. 03   Blue Cat Cafe, Heaton, Mersey
Dec. 28   Hungerford

further details on Tom's website: http://www.tomhingley.co.uk/

Nov. 8, 2002

This is the latest news and gossip off FallNet for those with weak stomachs.

If you have anything to say, you can mail Stefan, but you can't mail the FallNet mailing list direct anymore. To subscribe to FallNet, send mail to fallnet-subscribe@ yahoogroups.com. The Freedonia list is out of action.

ta to biv for this

Recent news...

15oct02 UK gig reports, 1983 photos, Fall press kit
20sept02 loads of upcoming releases, jigsaws, Vauxhall advert, Mark Prindle int., couple of music press scans, Slates movie clip, Fall Tattooing
23aug02 singles box and Totally Wired reviews, Rocking Vicar, lots of old music press scans
3july02 2G+2 reviews, 6FM mp3, Bourgeois Blues, bits
13jun02 2G+2, Wire 25th anniversay piece, custom Fall gig, PDFs of four old articles
16may02 Blackburn, London, ATP gig reviews, BBC 6FM, Sydney 1990 int., French cartoon
19apr02 US tour cancelled, Mojo article, Select (June 91), bits & pieces
19mar02 Euro tour reviews, Record Collector interview., Wire review, new Fall discog., misc.
13feb02 comp results, Athens review, Bournemouth Runner, Pan
13jan02 Timekode, Pan, bad German translations, NME 2/25/89 interview
02jan02 album reviews, ancient Usenet refs
12dec01 MCR gig reviews, album reviews, Pan
28nov01 mammoth US tour edition
13nov01 first batch of AYAMW reviews, London Forum gig reports
5nov01 Euro gig reports, Knitting Factory Knotes interview
19oct01 UK gig reports, studybees interview
30sep01 tour / booking details, 1979 fanzine interview
9sep01 not much
28aug01 Flitwick single, 82/83 gig pics
27jun01 Faustus
31may01 Dublin pics, Cash for Questions, Guardian interview
29apr01 IR, UK gig reviews
9apr01 NL gig reviews
3mar01 Dublin gig, Invisible Jukebox
28jan01 World Bewitched details
1jan01 some ace Castlefield pics
19dec00 more reviews
1dec00 tour reviews, crap interviews
10nov00 Unutterable reviews
21oct00 Stanza festival, HighSmith Teeth, comedy dogs
11oct00 RFH reviews, new Cog Sinister releases
12sep00 DOSE interview, Fall calendar
22aug00 Portugal, Manchester gigs 
9aug00 bits & pieces
23jul00 Psykick Dance Hall, Pure As Oranj details, Triple Gang reviews
9jul00 few bits
20jun00 Ashton, Hull, Middlesbrough, Glasgow, Edinburgh reviews, old Volume piece
30may00 LA2 reviews
22may00 few old LP reviews
2may00 bits & pieces
24apr00 TBLY #19 details, Prop details
8apr00 more Leeds reviews. WSC interview, other interview snippets
26mar00 Doncaster, York, Leeds reviews, BravEar interview (plus others)
14mar00 various reviews, old Liz Kershaw i/view
24feb00 Past Gone Mad details
13feb00 few bits & pieces
30jan00 tour details, Tommy Blake stuff
20jan00 TBLY #18 details, Hanley in Mojo
10jan00 Dragnet doylum, New Year message, etc

Old stuff: Nov 1997 - Dec 1999